tv Charlie Rose PBS November 21, 2012 12:00am-1:00am PST
hamas, organically linked to it but it is here trying to broker an end to the cease-fire, it is not doing what many want it to do which is break with israel, instead what it is trying to do is broker a cease-fire in which it brings this conflict, this conflict to an end, and which it preserves the peace treaty with israel because there is a profound need on the part of the egyptian government to deal with their monumental economic problems. >> rose: and then we turn to a new documentary filmed cause the central park 5, made by ken burns, his daughter sarah burns, and also joined by raymond santana. >> police department and the prosecutors made huge glaring errors, not entertaining alternate narratives, making huge mistakes in procedures. >> little kids should not be under that kind of interrogation, that is outrageous, that they missed the actual rapist several times and couldn't get him and i think people have made reputations prosecutors is made reputations on this and they can't abide by
the notion that they could say, you know, i am sorry, put a period at the end of this thing. >> rose: how many apologies have y received? >> none. >> rose: none? >> none. well from the media and elected officials, none. >> rose: the middle east and the central park 5, when we continue. funding for charlie rose was provided by the following.
>> rose: additional funding provided by these funders. and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia and news and information services worldwide. from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> rose: we begin today with the middle east and continue our coverage of the conflict in gaza, hamas has fired close to 1,300 rockets into israel, many of them have been intercept bid the iron dome defense system, the israeli defense force is responding with air strikes on gaza, diplomatic efforts to secure a cease-fire have been unsuccessful so far.
secretary of state hillary clinton met with prime minister netanyahu in a joint conflict the united states commitment to the israel is uncompromising. >> we came with a clear message, america's commitment to israel's security is rock solid and unwavering, that is why we believe it is essential to deescalate the situation in gaza. >> rose: the secretary of state travels to cairo tomorrow to take part in further negotiations, joining me now is rashid khalidi, he is the edward site professor of modern arab studies in columbia university, in washington dennis ross is with the washington institute for near east policy and a former u.s. envoy to the middle east. >> and abrams on the council for foreign relations a deputy national security advisor for global democracy strategy for president bush. his book tested by zion comes out later this year and i am pleased to have all of them here on this program this evening. i begin with dennis ross, tell
me where you think we are at this moment, dennis. >> well, i do think the outline of the cease-fire are probably getting pretty close to being finalized, i don't think they are quite finalized yet, not because the outlines are unclear but because i think there is probably a desire to have the secretary of state make certain that the understandings are understood the same way by all of the parties, number one, number 2, that there are actually promises that are made on those understandings and commitments made to the united states as a way of making it more likely that promises made will be upheld. so i think there is a decent chance there is going to be a cease-fire, but in my experience in this part of the world and having been involved in a lot of negotiations, these are never done until they are not only done but you actually begin to see them implemented and that's what we will need to see, the implementation begin. >> rose: what do you assume the promises made? >> i think that on the israeli
said, they are ready to stop if there is, you know,ive rockets stop unmistakably, number one, that hamas will commit to imposing a cease-fire on all of the other forces within gaza, and that they will seek, i think from the egyptians some assurances not only on the certainty of that but also on what is going to happen in terms of the replenishing of arms going into gaza. i think there is probably from the hamas side with egypt as egypt is probably promising the opening of passages which up until now at the descriptions have not really opened. and there may be something to do with what the israelis will be allowing into gaza, the fact is the israelis allowed much more into gaza, they still want to be able to check ships to be sure that big weapons aren't coming in that way but i think that is probably the outline that hamas probably also wants commitments from the israelis about not going after their leadership.
>> elliott, do you think this is a deal that the israelis will believe in and think acceptable for them? >> i do. i think one really critical part of it is the egyptian side, that is policing that border, something that the number rec regime did not do. the egyptians will promise to do that and the question then is, will the new government do it? and keep at least the long range iranian rockets from entering gaza? will they really police it and really close the tunnels i think that is going to be quite critical. >> rose: what do you think? >> well, i think as long as you keep a population of a million and a half people cooped up like animals you will have problems and the problems are not a function of anything but the natural frustration of a population under siege. if the siege is lifted not just a further loosening of israeli restrictions but people can move, if goods can move, israel is going to control anything that goes in by land and inspect until the cows come home that is not the issue, can the gazank
continue to be come and go, for a seventh consecutive year, that sat million and a half people i think that is a crucial, a crucial element of this. if there is just a slight loosening of the prison regime he will have an explosion in the -- as dennis said, hamas cannot control everything and everybody in a situation where the he miss investigation of gaza continues, you have to have a .. loosening of the whole regime. >> what siege are you talking about? there is a border with egypt, if there are no bandages in the hospital the egyptians can ship them in, live is too little food, 35 is too little cement you acts if israel surrounds gaza, it doesn't while don't you appeal to cairo if you are concerned about gazans being cooped up. >> they do appeal to egypt. >> so blame cairo this is not -- >> blame them both. >> gaza is still technically under occupation. that is what our government at least says on the cia maps because israel controls the air
space and controls entry and egress, even via egypt israel still is trying to maintain the regime it used to have whereby it monitored everybody going in and out, egyptian intelligence has not ceased to coordinate on people to this day the population of gaza cannot come and go freely, that is the key, that is the key element of this siege, it is not just cement or napkins or diapers, that was the issue before, that is not the issue now. it is free movement. >> well, there is never going to be 100 percent free movement because there is a border there. but it can be a more open border. >> rose: dennis. >> i was going to say, i do think, one of the promises that no doubt that the egyptians have made to hamas is they are going to open up the border, their border with gaza, and i do think that makes a difference. >> it will. >> the fact is, if the key here is going to be, a, to the egyptians, do the egyptians do something about the arms going into gaza, b, do they ease their
border with gaza, and in a sense there is probably a relationship between those two points, where the israelis it is a lot easier for them to do more, in fact they have been doing much more to allow goods to go in, precisely if this eno, in fact, the whole question of arms is going to be dealt with in a way it hasn't been up until now. >> i think the other question is a political question. i mean do you finally end this fiction of a has being too radical or too whatever to talk to? so the secretary of state will go to cairo and talk to people who talk to hamas. >> the israelis talk to people who talk to people who talk to hamas. >> hamas says it is willing to have a long-term truce and negotiated various truces have held badly or well, it is time to end this and stop saying the palestinians must stay divided the as precondition they must be weak and divided i mean that is american policy, that is the policy, you, dennis were one of the patrons of. >> rose: should hamas be required to make certain kinds of actions if they will take --
>> certainly anything you demand of hamas you should demand of israel. israel should recognize a palestinian state if the palestinians are required to recognize the israeli state, israel should be required to cease violence if hamas is, i think though are reasonable demand if they are made equal, israel is an established state but somehow the palestinians are asked to do things the israelis are not asked to do. >> not only the penalties consider hamas a terrorist group and as long as they are going around blowing up buses and committing other acts of terrorism or trying to, you cannot treat them as anything other than the terrorist groups they are. we have a relationship with the palestinian leadership, which the u.n. calls the stole legitimate voice of the palestinian people in rama la, i don't think you will see the obama administration open up some kind of relationship with hamas unless hamas renowns violations and, violence and terrorism. >> i don't think you can expect,
that is not going to happen. >> why not? >> well for one thing i becauset is seen as resistance occupation, they continue their occupation and the palestinians have to stand quietly well, i think the palestinians would be well-advised to renowns violence. >> hamas chart search not important, if they say we are willing to negotiate that should be enough you should see what the deal is and let them put it to a palestinian -- >> rose: is hosni prepared to negotiate through the palestinian party. >> they say yes, they are not allowed to form a unity government but that is not wanted in washington. >> rose: because of the arab spring and because of iran and because of leaving damascus and all kind of things so hamas, whatever happens here, has come out a better place within the palestinian community, dennis? >> well, there certainly is a different place because there is different egyptian government if you go back to 2008 and
operation cash led it was the number rec government quietly tell the israelis finish off hamas, now you have a government in egypt led by president obama morsi who comes from the egyptian brotherhood who are connected organically to hamas, and so by almost by definition, the situation is different because you have an egyptian government that is actually a patron of hamas. now, with that said what is most interesting to me is that here is an egyptian government that is a patron of hamas, organically linked to it and yet it is here actually trying to broker an end o of the to the cease-fire and not doing what many want it to do which is break with israel, instead what it is trying to do is broker a cease-fire in which it brings this conflict, this conflict to an end, and which it preserves a peace treaty with israel, because there is profound need on the part of the egyptian government to deal with their monumental economic problems and they realize if you break with israel you break the treaty, you
are not going to be getting the kind of assistance and investments from the outside that you need. so in a sense, you have the senior partner in the relationship convincing hamas it is very much in their interests to end this. now, obviously, they will make some promises to a has but they will also make some promises to israel so there is something different in this equation, not all of it is necessarily bad. >> well, a lot of things have changed in the region. one thing that has changed is you are beginning to have some governments that are necessarily responsive to their people's wishes. unlike the despots and autocrats which whom we had to deal two years years ago, it is not just yemen, it is tunisia and so forth and again, turkey is populist and responding to public opinion, sometimes in a demagogue genetic way but these are governments .. that are finally obliged to act on the basis of what their people feel and their people feel very strong about the palestine issue, the egypts and turks feel
strongly. >> rose: where is turkey in this? >> not central. not central. >> rose: dennis? >> i was going to say, turkey is not central. they may want to be central but they are not central. egypt is assuming, again, the kind of pride of place it has had in the region and certainly its own self image in terms of being a leader in the region. president morsi is adopting that role in order for him to do it he can't do it guided solely by the muslim brotherhood ideology he has to do it based upon what egypt's needs are and egypt's needs right now put more of an emphasis on ensuring they can address their economy and not be governed by a set of ideological imper it was. >> rose: said another way, morsi government has to prove it can govern? >> it does have to prove it can govern. one of the things that is interesting you do have leaderships now that do have to pay attention to their public, their republicans have expectations and needs and hopes, and one of those is that,
in fact the needs of the public will be addressed. >> rose: is it possible coming out of this is something positive in terms of future relationship between palestinians and israelis and between israelis and new arab governments? is that possible here? >> it helps the relationship -- egypt and israel. they have worked together pretty well, it also improved the relationship between netanyahu government and our own government. they have worked together pretty well over the last week as well. >> rose: do you agree with that, dennis, we are looking at where there was a fractured relationship it might be getting better? >> i do, i think one of the most significant things is that you have a very different egyptian government, and that very different egyptian government realizes that it needs to have a certain kind of relationship with israel. the muslim brotherhood base has not wanted a certain kind of relationship with israel, it wanted to basically break that
relationship, this new egyptian government although it emerges from the muslim brotherhood it needs to have that relationship and i would say it is a little bit pregnant now in terms of that relationship and in this sense, it actually, i think creates some promise for the future. another thing you will see is much greater pressure from all of these regional powers, arab countries and turkey for greater palestinian unity and not going to be on the the same basis as before flew can it be achieved? >> i don't know, i mean there are a lot of vested interests preventing it, the united states and israel has to remove the veto but it is something universally demanded by pill stanian opinion, they loathe it. >> rose: are they for spurring hamas on. >> over 120 have been killed, most of them civilians as always, palestinians are not going to say we are against the people firing the rockets that make the israelis feel what we feel tenfold i mean three israelis sadly have died, 120 odd palestinians have died.
that kind of calculus is going to make people naturally stand with their side as israelis line up behind their government, including people like myself who don't support hamas. everybody feels in this situation you have this terrible, this terrible toll being inflicted on a people that is, you know, essentially imprisoned, i mean physically unable to leave the gaza strip, partly as elliott says because of what egypt's policy has been but mainly because they can't get out via the crossings, and to the rest of the palestine, the west bank. >> rose: the secretary of state -- >> dennis. >> i would also say something else. look, hamas also has to have a strategy that is other than only resistance the only thing hamas transferred today is resister stabs if that is going to, resistance .. ifhat is going to continue to be their strategy that is a dead end and will guarantee continued suffering for the people in gaza. this he have not looked for a way out and unless they do, you know, it is pretty hard to see how things change for them. >> let's see what the israeli
response is when they renew their office with the palestinian authority to negotiate and see what our government response is they said it many times in the past and there has been a stone wall response. >> from our government and from israel. >> rose: elliott? >> wrong that is quite right for one thing in the last four years, the palestinian authority has refused to negotiate. the palestinian authority has to change that now maybe after the u.n. vote if we switchback it will change and agree to sit down at the table and i think you in see some form of negotiation beginning and probably after the israeli election, which is still scheduled for january 22nd. when i was an advisor to the palestinian delegation and dennis working for secretary baker and bush, we realized that negotiating while israel was closing jerusalem and was continuing settlements with a futile, pointless exercise, unless the united states was willing at that time to be faithful to the guarantees or the letters of assurance it gave to all of the parties and froze the situation, while we were
negotiating there is almost no point in negotiating they are eating the pie we are supposed to be gauche weigh in is 20 years ago and this is old news but this continues and netanyahu saysly take this, and take this but negotiate with you, you can't have a negotiation in that situation. >> rose: dennis? >> look, you know, the netanyahu government actually did a moratorium on settlement building, they have done less than their predecessors in this regard, every time they offered something the answer has been, give us something more, give us something different, i mean the fact is, the best way to produce a change is in fact have a negotiation, i just will add one point on hamas, the conditions that the united states and the quartet have put on hamas are basically the same conditions originally imposed on the plo. >> rose: i remember. >> i don't know why we would have -- i don't know why we would have a standard for recognition of the plo in and dealing with the plo that would be more demanding than the one
we would have for hamas, hamas ought to be able to meet the same standard. >> rose: do you believe that somehow the pressure for palestinian unity will bring them hamas and fatah together? >> i hope so. >> i don't know. >> i wish that were the case. i wish our government were wiesner that regard. i wish israel were wiesner this regard. they want to negotiate with all of the palestinians. >> rose: is this not of interest, elliott? to have one palestinian authority? >> well, the problem is that, yeah, it is in interest of israel as long as it is not a terrorist led palestinian authority. i don't think you are going to see that kind of union at this, they have tried it before after the mecca agreement in 2007, it lasts for a month, four months, five months the problem between hamas and fatah isn't israel or the united states it is the fatah guys and hamas hate each other and have a long history of killing each other. we are not interfering in that. they are doing that themselves. both things are true. >> both things there are true.
there is a great deal of hostility between them and we have been interfering in that so both things happen to be view. >> rose: what is the role of secretary of state clinton in cairo? dennis? >> well, i believe that -- i believe that the key to their role, her role right now is identify very clearly what are the understandings, making certain that all of the understandings are understood exactly the same way, crystallizing what are the promises that each side are making to the other, and then having those promises also in a sense be deposited with her, which is a way of creating some standards which everybody has to be held accountable to. >> rose: elliott? >> i think that will help ensure the cease-fire not only takes hold and actually gets implemented but then it gives ate chance to endure. >> i think that's right. i would just add it is important i think for us to be there. iit is kind of symbolic that despite the so-called pivot to asia we are not for getting about the middle east and
recognize the critical importance and the dangers that exist in the middle east. and it is some bollcally significant that she .. has to leave the asia trip to go back to the middle east. >> rose: you mean you can pivot to asia but never let go of the middle east? >> you never let go and he is pivoting back, yes. it means the middle east has a way of imposing itself on you so if you think you can walk away from it, sooner or later it will impose itself on you. >> rose: what do both of you think in washington, president netanyahu really wants? what is his -- he has an election coming up in several month, what does he really want to do? how far is he prepared to go? how much does he really want to see this thing taking off as a conflict for him? >> i would just say i think he wants to win the election. he wants to re-establish a good working relationship with president obama. he wants to turn our attention now to iran, and he will use
those long range iranian missiles that struck or tried to strike jerusalem and tell a industry as a remindser of iran, i don't think .. israelis are in mood frankly for a serious negotiation that leads them to withdraw from the west bank now, because the lesson they learned from gaza for them today is, it is not land for peace, it is land for terror, so i think it will really turn the attention or try to iran is the next big problem. >> rose: dennis. >> the only thing i would -- i think that generally that is right but i would say one thing, when you turn the attention to iran, i think also recognizing that if diplomacy in the end doesn't succeed with iran, even if that is the preference, if it doesn't succeed with iran, i do think that the prime minister would like to have the palestinian issue diffused in some meaningful way if, in fact, it turns out diplomacy fails industries a advice iran, will
is a context you are going to want to have existing, including not having a second front with the palestine wranls at the same time you are taking on iran, so i am a little bit more the optimistic that there is a possibility that after the election, depending on the kind of government he is able to put together the broader base of government the more i think he might be prepared to try to do something, and bear in mind one thing when he had a broad-based government in '94, he made a speech last june in which he said two things that were quite interesting. number one, peace with the palestinians is not a favor israel does for the palestinians, it is in israel's strategic interest and secondly he said we are not going to become a buy national state by that he acknowledged the demographic trends are something that are real and israel has to contend, with i think both of those in addition to the iranians argue for, in fact, after the election him looking to see if something can be done with the palestinians. >> rose: so it is a real
opportunity for the obama administration as well? >> i think it is a possible opening, it is not going to be easy because the context remains very difficult and a level of disbelief on the part of both israeli and palestinian public toward the other is a commitment to two states is so strong right now that something has to be tone to try to deal with that disbelief. >> rose: an opportunity? >> there would be an opportunity if we would begin to act like on nest brokers and stop putting our big heavy thumb on the scale in favor of the israel every time will is a negotiation. there would be an opportunity if the palestinians were encouraged to get together. their divisions are real. this is not something create bed at this outside but they are exacerbated and made much worse and they are kept apart. there would be an opportunity if we took seriously ending occupation you can't say well we can't leave because there will be terror this is an occupation and going on 440 some odd years and has to be has to be end and we don't talk about that and, you request not have settlement and not have a single state, that's what the settlements --
>> if occupation ended tomorrow what would happen? >> presumably you could have a palestinian state but that is -- how do you get there. >> what would be the threat to israel? >> you would have to have a government, a palestinian government that would negotiate that deal and hamas would then have to fish or cut bait. they would have to do what they say they are willing to do, have a 100 year truce with israel and allow the pa to negotiate for them and put them to the test. this is what they say. it would be worth seeing what would happen. i mean what would be worse, continuation of this miserable status quo and movement what dennis correctly talked about which is a single state with a jewish minority and arab minority with only jews having rights is what we have now, we have a de facto one state solution now, one sovereign authority between the river and the sea. >> rose: elliott, there is much discussion about this before we even had this most recent crisis, how long i is the window maintained to have the option of the two-state solution? or does it at some
point not have a chance? >> i really don't think that there is some kind of crisis developing overnight. if said that in 1967 this will last for 45 years most people would have said that is impossible you are crazy. it can last for a few more years while people try to work this out. where i disagree with rashid is, israelis believed they learned something from south lebanon and gaza when they got out terrorism followed they are not going to blythely leave the west bank in the hope that terrorism will not follow and hamas will not take over. they will have to be ironclad guarantees and i frankly don't see them today. >> rose: finally, while industry the three of you here, what is likely to change and where do you think syria is headed at this moment, although we have shifted our focus to this conflict between israel and hamas? dennis? >> what are the options that present themselves? >> look, i think syria is .. headed to a failed state which
is nobody's interest in the region, and i think the key at this point is, for us to find a way to do more. you will already seeing the effort to build a more credible opposition. >> rose: right. >> now i think what is needed is also to ensure that the balance of power within that opposition is one that doesn't favor the radical islamists instead it means finding a way to get material support both nonlethal and lethal assistance to those who are more secular, who are submitted to an inclusive future for syria, who are committed to, in fact, a much more democratic future for syria. i think it is almost inevitable that we and others internationally are going to do more to build up the opposition because the alternative is to see a failed state where the kind of conflict you see within syria more and more begins not only to stay within syria, but begins to radiate outwards and that is something that threatens all of syria's neighbors.
>> rose:. >> what we have now is a sectarian civil war which is destroying civil society and which is producing hundreds of thousands of refugees a month, i think it is really essential to stop the fighting however that can be done. >> rose: what is the formula to stop it? >> i don't know what the formula is, but i want to say one other thing which is that the recipe for avoiding having the more extreme radical islamists continue to gain in strength and this fighting. >> is do nothing? >> well, is to not -- is to examine our alliances in saudi arabia, i mean, it is the saudis funding the most extremes and not just in syria all over the region this is an issue nobody wants to talk about, it is very important, i think that changing the situation in syria is essential, i think that having a stable syria is essential, but i think that the path to that does not mean you just have to continue this policy of letting societies and letting the turks and letting other people take the lead. i think you have to try to stop the fighting how you do that, i
do not know. there are several will people in syria who unfortunately support this regime, whether they think thetheir lives are linked to ito it or not you won't kill them all and it won't be easy -- >> rose: the al whites. >> there are 2 million al weitz. >> there has to be a deal here .. which will end the assad regime and somehow protect, both the minorities and the assets of syrian state and assets of secularism and tolerance this state still has and is going away in the brutal sectarian civil war. >> rose: do you think the administration is prepared to look at that kind of role for itself? >> i do think the administration will become more active because the consequences of not doing so are moving us toward a failed state. look, everybody would prefer a peaceful outcome and hard to see how you can produce a peaceful outcome as long ass saddam hussein is, there as long as he is there he is a symbol to
ensure the opposition the feels it has no choice. for a long time i felt it was important to find ways to reach out to the aluwites to separate them from outside to provide some assurance to them to what their role to be in the deutsch. >> rose: it is clear to me the chemical weapons if they are at risk that will accelerate all kinds of action plans, am i right, elliott? >> sure. i think that was -- that would leave maybe the turks and maybe the israelis and maybe the united states to do something more directly i really do regret the passivity i think we have shown over the last year and a half because it has led to this war dragging on, and now we certainly with 40,000 dead and maybe more. i hope dennis is right, that now post election the united states will take a larger role. i am afraid, though, that this regime is now really in a war with the majority of the syrian people and the only way this ends is for assad to be
defeated. and zero to have to leave, and to have to leave the country. i don't see some kind of negotiated deal with him taking place. >> rose: elliott abrams, thank you, and rashid khalidi, dennis ross, former u.s. envoy to the middle east, thank you all. >> thank you, charlie. >> rose: we will be right back, stay with us. >> rose: on the night of april 19th, 1989 a white jogger was brutally beaten and raped in new york city, central park, five black and latino teenagers were charged with the crime, the case dominated the news in a city plagued by high crime crime and racial tension all five of the accused were convicted and served between seven and 13 years in prison and exonerated in 2002 after serial rapist and murderer confessed to being the stole as stale atlanta, sarah burns discovered the student as an undergraduate student at yale and published a story, called the central park 5, a chronicle
of -- it is called the central park 5, here is the trailer for the film. >> i want us to remember what happened that day. and be horrified by ourselves. in the late 1980s it was a completely schizophrenic, divided city. >> new york now is divided by racial violence. >> criminality, gang wars -- >> we were supposed to be afraid, it would have been irrational not to be afraid. >> off with the -- >> last night, a woman jogger was pound unconscious and partially clothed in central park and she was beaten and sexually assaulted. >> a woman jogging in central park, central park was holy, it was the crime of the century. >> five youths were arrested in '96th street all between 14 and
15 years of age. >> we got them! >> you can only imagine the pressure to have this crime solved and solved quickly. >> first they put us in different rooms, separated us. >> >> what did you do? who were you with? >> the tone was very scary. >> i felt like they might take us to the back of the street and kill us. >> never go home. >> i told my son to go to the park that night, i feel guilty. >> i don't know what you are talking about and got angry, you know you did it. >> for over 24 hours, that is amounts to pressure. >> these young men were guilty, it was almost unquestioned. >> the police controlled the story. they created the story. they seized on the fears of the people. the wilding, the characterization of the black man. >> this is no dna match whatsoever to any of these boys.
>> i was going nuts. >> no blood on the kids, nobody could identify them. but if they confessed they confessed and that was that. >> a lot of people didn't do their jobs, reporters, prosecutors, defense lawyer. >> we convicted them and we walked away from our crime. >> the ultimate siren that says none of us are safe. >> rose: joining me now are two of the film makers sarah burns and her father, my friend ken burns, also joining us is raymond i santana one of the central park 5 i am pleased to have all of them here at this table for this provocative and extraordinarily well done documentary, welcome to all of you. >> thanks for having us. >> although you get some sense of this and attention to this go through what happened that night and how it built to what we are just seeing in that trailer. >> on april 19th, 1989 a bunch of teenagers went into the park,
they had the day off from school, the next day, thursday, and in the course of it may be 25, 35 we don't know how many, started hassling joggers and bike riders, drunk, actually beat up somebody, a various roaming gang, meanwhile and they were picked up, several people were picked up and held basically for, you know, unlawful assembly, their parents were going to come and get them, meanwhile later on, a female jogger was discovered late at night, a death in the normal part of central park, and not unreasonably the comes thought well maybe these kids had something to do it with and everything just plowed into that, they are allowed plowed and interrogated for 30 hours, more often than not without parents around, there was a kind of -- a kind of their confessions were coerce add kind of circular firing squad, charlie we know you are a good kid we know you didn't do it but ken are in another room and you
go who are they, because they didn't know each other, and they are saying you did it and if you just say you saw them do it we will let you go home and after a while you are 14, 15 years old, 16 years old which is what these five were, they started giving it up and sort of telling what the cops said and then after all of this, with the cop standing behind with their folded they go videotape the confessions and it just plows, meanwhilele out tt world it is going crazy, this is wilding, this is the end of the city, you remember, it was sort of the a poth sister of what is wrong with the cities going to hell in a hand basket and couldn't do anything with our kids .. and they went to jail, the oldest got 13 years in maximum security adult prisons, the others went to very heavy security juvenile detention. meanwhile, the comes had missed two days before an assault, they had the name of the rapist in hand, forgot to follow it through, a few days later he committed more crimes and more
crimes and actually murdered a pregnant woman and that summer was finally caught not by the lis but by civilians and nobody, a lot of detectives working both cases, nobody, you know, checked the dna, the kids were making inconsistent comments, they clearly didn't know where the crime took place and none of the professional would expect from the detectives and prosecutors came in, it is all right to have a theory but to entertain the alternative theory wasn't happening, the city was relieved, they sort of bought into this notion, this sort of deep archival notion of the fear of the black man that comes from, you know, goes back to jim crow america, that was headlines that looked like that in the tabloids in new york city, and finally, the last of the five was getting out of jail, and bumped into the rapist in prison, and h he had a crisis of conscious and he confessed suddenly we had matching dna and answers to questions that even the cops didn't know.
suddenly everything was find, morgue that will the reinvestigated and assigned new prosecutors, and they found out, agreed, wrote a scathing 50 plus page report, they said there had been huge errors made by the police and the ross cures and all of this and they had known then what they knew now they would not have even charged them. a few months later, the five launched a civil suit against the city and that is still pending. and recently -- >> rose: still pending. >> still pending after nearly a decked and recently the city subpoenaed all of our out takes and records as part of, we believe, just a cynical attempt to continue -- >> rose: did they ask you to give them up? >> they asked -- they subpoenaed them first, and they put even the confession in quotes as if insulting the judge, insulting robert morgan that will and insulting the colleague whose did the investigation and insulting the intelligence of the rest of us .. and we have moved to quash that subpoena and have, you know, produced a film which we, you know, sarah made
her outraged and we are still outraged. >> rose: who questioned, here, how did you get interested in this? >> i was as you said i was in college and i was majoring in american studies and i spent a summer working for a civil rights lawyer who was getting involved in that civil suit, it was before the suit was filed in 2003, and i learned about this case and i met naman and kevin and was so moved by their story and outraged by what had happened the fact it wasn't a story i knew, i hadn't been aware of it until that time and the fact the convictions were vacated was about big story i wrote my senior essay about it and came back to it and decided that i wanted to explore more of this story, so i spent about five years working on this book. >> rose: and what do we know and what can we say about the person who was assaulted? >> >> tricia miley was a 28-year-old investment banker. and she was a regular runner. she went jogging in central park
around 9:00 p.m. that night, and she suffered such horrific injuries, admission to being raped, he beat her around the face and she suffered a traumatic brain injury, and so she has no memory of what happened this the park at all that night. and it is really a miracle she survived, she was found hours later, she bled out, essentially, she was hypothermic, it is really incredible, she was in a coma for nearly two weeks, they didn't expect her to survive. so -- and she made a really miraculous recovery and actually now herself speaks about how she came back from this traumatic brain injury. >> rose: take us to the night you were arrested. >> you know,, it was after school, it was -- it was liken said, you know, we didn't have school the next day because it was a holiday and i went, hung out with some friends at the frat houses and they suggested we go hang out and usually what
we did is go to other neighborhoods and visit other people and it just so happened that we would go down tenth street and by this time, this is this group of kids and somebody suggest goad to park so we followed, you know, and in turn, you know, we saw several events that occurred, some of us did some -- and i happened to get arrested outside of the park. you know, and be taken to the precinct for the first time. i never had any dealing with the policpolice officers, it was myt time even in their presence so it was very intimidating, it was very horrifying for me. >> rose: tell me what they said to you and what you said and -- >> well, it was basically they said they were going to give us a ticket our parents would come pick us up and go home from there. and then we statistic around waiting until our parents came and as the parents starting to come one by one we a statistic and waited before they said they had to hold off and say look we won't let you leave us yet because some other peace officers want to talk to you and waited for the detectives to
come. >> rose: and then. a. and so after the detectivescg into the room first and then i went to a different room and that's when the interrogation process started and so they basically started saying, you know, they started out nice and calm, you know raymond we just want to know what happened that night so i would go through the series of events that i saw that occurred, and so they took it and, but we kept going over it and over it several times, and then as the process went on, then the attitude started to change a little bit they started to become more boisterous and more loud, and my grandmother was there at the time and she didn't know really what was going on, so detective roy would have to stop and talk to her and translate it to spanish and he would say you know, raymond, he tells a story but i think he knows more. and i would tell him i don't know more and then came in and said, well, then it is a
situation where, you know, they started to bring the other officers into the room, so they had an officer that would take my grandmother out and the talk to the hallway and telling her, you know, he thinks i know more and then they had these officers that would come in and start the intimidation process on me. you know, act like they are going to lunge as you at you and start cursing at you and then my grandmother comes back in and everything changes, and like it never happened, and that, it was about three of those, three of those incidents that occurred and the last one is, and we are talking over numerous hours of interrogation, tell us what happened again, start from the top of the story, who were you with? who did you come with, what happened? and each time, they got more boisterous or detective roy was blowing smoke in my face and yelling at me and cursing at me and intimidating me more and more and i start to cry and it wasn't until the last sequence they took my grandmother out of the room one more time and the officer pulled up is chair and started yelling in my ear and blowing smoke in
my face and yelling and i have this guy yelling at my ear and he knows i did it. and i at this point i am frightened and i don't know what to do and so, you know, here comes connective heart and comes out of nowhere, i can't tell you when he came in the room, i didn't know he was there and he stops and these officers from, you know, from what i thought was they were going to harm me, you know and he gets them out of the room and then he starts to work on me now he use as different approach, you kw, he starts to use a more kinder approach, and you know, raymond i know you are a good kid and didn't do this, but i need your help, you know i know you come from a good family and he pulled out this folder of kevin richardson and puts it on the table you know this guy? this is kevin and i didn't know kevin at the time, and he says, you see this scraps under his eye? that is from a women jog her he is going to jail but i don't want you to go to jail i need your help i need your help, give me a story with kevin richardson and that's how the forced confession started with kevin
richardson. today we mentioned the suit that has taken year, why has it taken ten years? >> the expression you can't fight city hall? it has nothing to do with nefarious things, it has to do with almost russian bureaucracy that is like molasses poured into the system. >> rose: go ahead. >> they just asked, you know, they asked, demand information raymond's father for example 20 years of employment, health records, has he over been on public assistance, please provide this, meanwhile they can't seem to come up with obvious stuff that de, the notes the detectives should keep and judges have reprimanded him this is slow and i think what they are looking for and what they are fishing in our material is to look for inconsistencies, charlie you told us you entered the park at 9:01 you told ken and sarah and david mcmahon the third director of this film you came in at 9:02 do you always lie so if you can amass a critical mass. >> rose: they don't believe the confession? >> i think wha what it is is tht people made some mistakes to
admit the mistakes -- >> rose: the police department. >> the police department and the prosecutors made huge, glaring errors, not entertaining alternative narratives, making huge mistakes, and procedures, little kids should not be under that type of enter weighs that is outrageous, that they missed the actual rapist several times and couldn't get him and i think people have made reputations, prosecutors have made rep faces on this, and they can't abide by the notion that they could say, you know, i am sorry, put a period at the end of this thing,. >> rose: right. >> and end not only their limbo but their family's limbo and some way the city, this is a hugely symbolic crime that still has a kind of dot, dot, dot, at the end of it and hasn't been closed off. >> rose: we saw al sharpton there and we saw the mayor andy con. they are all -- >> everybody are players in all of this and jim dwyer from "the new york times" is sort of the freak chorus in this, you know, just says this was a proxy war in which somehow we sacrificed
five human beings and called them names, wolf pack, the worst thing you could expect, and yet no one stopped and said, who are you? and what were you actually doing? and you say you didn't do it, let's pursue that. >> rose: here is a clip from your film and which jim dwyer the aforementioned jim dwyer talks about media coverage, here it is. >> i looked by th back at the jr case and wish i had been more skeptical as a journalist, you know, a lot of people didn't do their jobs. reporters, police, prosecutors, defense lawyers, this was a proxy war being fought. and these young men were the proxies for all kind of other agendas. and the truth and the reality and just were not part of it. >> rose: knowing all of this is going on, at any time were
people saying beyond those were the quleed participation and knowledge this is did not happen, this is a mistake we are being victim mid here by the times? not "the new york times" but the moment? >> there wasn't much, i mean a few people and there were supporters in the african-american community especially there were some supporters who were pointing out some of these problems, but not enough to get the attention of the mainstream media which was plowing ahead with this story, basically the police prevented, presented at these press conferences and you see in the film what their version of the story was, and the media for the most part just bought that and printed it as the gospel. >> rose: failure of the media here? >> it is a significant one. there is an interesting story we learned about in the early stick66advertise where george we was in a false confession thing and led to miranda and led to the death penalty in the new york state coming back so this
was a complete collapse of any kind of authority on the part of the press to do their jobs and part of the reason why the coverage in 2002 was so minimal when they were exonerated, is that part of it but having the strsh agency, the mess we are say, i screwed up too. >> rose: there was a trial, where was the defense counsel here? >> well, they each had defense attorneys, of course, but most of them were found not in quite the right way, so only one who was actually assigned by the court, who i think really did the best that he could under pretty impossible circumstances. for the most part the representation was not at the highest level, and really failed to get across the points, these problems, these inconsistencies the last of dna evidence, these things were came up and kind of dismissed too easily. >> rose: you think your lawyer believed you? >> i mean, overall,, no but i do
think that there was a part where he finally did come around, but it was too late by that time. you know, and. >> rose: sitting in a jail cell by then? >> pretty much but also a part where, you know, they had to bring me through alternative entrance, and i remember coming in and i saw, you know, all of the attorneys standing thereup?ç with the prosecutor and the judge and laughing and joking, and i felt like this is is the person who is fighting for my life? it is not going to happen. >> how many apologies have you received. >> none. >> rose: none? >> none. >> well from the yield or -- and elected officials, none. >> rose: now why is that, ken? >> it is just one of these things, i think a lot has to do with race, i don't think they are targeting and oh let's get some black kids and pin the crime on them but in tend we are so suscept to believe the imagery of the other, that it just seemed as improbable as it was that these five wolf pack wildings all made up could have
happened, and not accept what really happened, which is there was a sociopathic rapist on the loose that they failed to catch. >> rose: rotate to another segment from this part, from this movie, central park 5. >> they got to one point where they pulled me, to the bench on the coffee room and the lawyer says, you know, we are going to lose this case. what we are planning to do to see if we can get you a plea deal and i remember telling them, you know,, you guys can cop out, but if i did something, i would cop out, i would want the least amount of time for what i did. if i didn't do anything you can give me the rest of my life in prison, you know. i didn't know what that meant back then but i just knew that there would be no way i could cop out to something i didn't do. they said well it has to be all three of you guys or nobody. and so, you know, we looked at each other and it was like well -- >> rose: this is a bit of what
would you say, departure for you? >> it is. it is very much a departure, because first of all, i have the privilege of working with my daughter and my son-in-law, it is a departure in that it is stylistically difference and has no narration which we have been, i think gratefully dependent on all of these years and it works that way, and yet it is not a departure, in that we have been dealing and we have been talking about this for 20 years, about race in america, and what it means, whether it is you you in jazz, whether it is heroic in baseball and jackie robinson, whether it is the civil war or jack johnson and having to do with the darker, underbelly of it in this country. it is the sub theme of american life you can't the help but bump into if you are going to scratch the surface of just about anything. >> rose: this is one chapter in a long history of america of race. >> and it is what drew sarah in and i think, you know, it is what continually interests me. >> rose: will this change your life in terms of what you might
want to do with your life? >> well, yeah, i mean, we are already begun or next project, collaborating on another film so -- >> rose: the two of you have? >> yes. and david mcmahon as well, so we are going to be making a film about jackie robinson. >> rose: that is great. >> i somehow ended up in the family business after all. >> rose: he is a great teacher? >> yes not just working on this project, i mean, i think what i know about story telling, i learned through osmosis, you know, throughout my whole life i spent time in the eding room as a can id sitting, i remember sitting on the consultants during the baseball screenings and giving my comments about which photographs should be there and i have been learning this story telling process .. my whole life. >> rose: raymond, how will you today. >> today it is a struggle every day, everybody, says move on, jackie robinson, so can ken and
i stayed the central park 5, for me this train doesn't move so quickly. , you know,, there is still the civil suit that is open, you know, and we can't get closure until that chapter is finally closed for us, in order to move on. >> rose: thank you for coming, sarah, great to have you, raymond, thank you for joining us. see you next time. >> rose: funding for charlie rose has been provided by the